Colour coding:-
E-Mails / Letters Received
E-Mails / Letters Sent
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:12 AM
Subject: clio-williams
Hello !
I stumbled coincidentally across your web site whilst surfing on the Internet, and have seen that you have a Williams for
sale.
I would like to ask the following: is this car still available, and what is the current mileage. When was the last service,
and what was changed in the ignition module (ECU). Was the rev. limiter raised from 6500 rpm to 7200 rpm ? And who did this,
and when ?
Many thanks in advance for your quick answer
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: clio-williams
Hello,
Yes, the Clio Williams Serie I is still available - we haven't found the right fan yet!
The exact speedometer reading is 30.190 km (accident-free, garaged car, located in the Köln-Bonn region). The car was
first registered on 13.07.93. The last (and second)service was on 09.03.95 at 10.526 km. Since then I have changed the
engine oil twice (Mobil Rally 1 full synthetic) at 22.600 km and 28.900 km). The previous owner had bought a modified
ignition box (ECU) from Renault Sport in Brühl (Oktober 1995), which together with the Devil rear silencer and the
K&N air filter should give 168 bhp in total; but because I have never put the Williams onto a rolling road, I cannot
confirm the power output.
I have never tried to rev. the Williams above 6500 rpm, so I cannot confirm if the limiter has been increased to 7.200 rpm.
The TÜV and ASU expired in May this year, but I will obviously renew these before selling the car. There is a Hi-Fi
loudspeaker system built into the rear parcel shelf; also the car has a set of almost unused winter tyres on steel rims.
Two empty wine bottles (1 x red, 1 x white) and some servietes from Williams Grand Prix Engineering belong to the car.
Is that something for you?
We look forward to hearing from you again.
Best regards
Andrea & David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: clio-williams
A wonderful Good Morning !
Yes, this car sounds very interesting. I already own 3 examples of these cars.
A Williams Phase I 10/93 with 9.400 KM on the clock
A Williams Swiss Championat with almost 40.000
A Williams Group A with ca. 230 bhp (EX-Renault Works Car......)
Because I have a soft spot for these cars, I must admit that your offer sounds very interesting.
Is it possible for you to send me a few pictures via e-mail ?
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:49 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Hello!
You certainly have an impressive collection of Clio Williams. Have you any more space in your garage?
I bought the Williams in January 1996 for my wife, to replace our Renault 5 GT Turbo, which was almost 10 years old. We
looked around for several months for a Clio 16 V or a Williams, and the car that we eventually bought was the best one that
we could find.
Just 3 months later, my wife had to change her job, and since then uses her bicycle to go to work, so - except for one
holiday in Devon/Cornwall - we have only driven the Clio to one or two meetings per year, plus ca. 20 km once a month, just
to move the car.
Unfortunately you have already seen the only photographs that we have of the car on our web site. We will take a few photos
over the weekend, and e-mail these on to you. However, it will take about 2 weeks before we will have the film developed
and scanned in.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards
David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Traub
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:01 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr. Butcher,
We had already briefly contacted each other in the middle of this year. I had then approached you via your home page, and
requested that you sent me a few photos of your Clio via Email.
I think according to your description and pictures on your home page that the car is in excellent condition.
I myself currently have a Williams with just over 50.000 KM on the clock, which I only drive in good weather.
Unfortunately there are quite a few "worn out" and bad examples of these cars.
I would be happy if we can come to a deal for this car.
On your home page you mention "offers around 21.000.-" DM. The car is now advertised in mobile.de for 19.900.-.
Is that your last word ? If you make me a good price, I will collect the car over a weekend with nice weather, and place it
in my garage. I'm not sure whether I will register the car next year, or store it in my garage.
I have attached a picture of my Clio and a friends' Peugeot.
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Traub
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: Clio Williams again
Dear Mr Butcher,
You can always contact me - to speed the process up - on the following number.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:44 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr Schröder,
Unfortunately we never got round to take any more photographs of our Clio Williams to send to you.
We also saw a few "used" examples before we bought ours, but it was worth waiting for.
Unfortunately, it looks as if we will need to purchase a larger vehicle soon (Chrysler Grand Voyager or similar), so for
this reason have sadly advertised our Clio Williams for sale.
We wanted DM 21.000 for the car at the begining of this year, but are now prepared to part with the car for only DM 19.900
including a new TÜV and ASU.
If anyone is prepared to buy the car without a new TÜV and ASU (expired in May 2001), then the price is DM 19.000,-.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Good Morning Mr. Butcher,
Could we arrange a viewing appointment for this weekend ?
PLEASE do not sell the car, because if the condition is as described, then I have already purchased the car !
But you surely understand that I would like to briefly see the car before a 100% confirmation.
Many thanks for your quick answer.
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Me again...
I will telephone you briefly this evening, to clarify some details.
Until then, have a nice day
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello !
Could you possibly call me on my mobile: 0172 - 6449440, and quickly tell me if it is possible to view the car today ?
I need about 3 hours to get to you
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello,
There wasn't a single drop of oil under the Clio Williams this morning; the oil level was - as previously - at half full on
the dipstick. We have smelt the fluid that is on the steering rack and the catalyser. It doesn't smell like engine or
gearbox oil, more like power steering pump fluid (which doesn't explain the loss of power).
We have tried to contact various Renault dealers by telephone today. Because the showrooms of the main Renault dealer for
this region (Renault Rhein-Sieg) are open today, we have taken the Clio Williams there - as you requested - i.e. we have
towed it there with our company car.
We have spoken to the son of the Service Manager (Mr Kaiser) and requested that after establishing the cause of the
symptoms that you have described, he should contact you, so that you can authorise the repairs.
Best regards
Andrea & David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Dear Mr Schrödter,
According to Renault Rhein Sieg, the problems with the Williams were caused by a faulty catalyser. We had informed you
before the purchase that the catalyser could be faulty.
Because other people are interested in the car, we would like to conclude the sale of the Clio to you as soon as possible.
Please confirm that you will be at Renault Rhein Sieg on Saturday, 27th October at ca. 12:00 o'clock, to pay us
the balance of DM 17.500,- (in cash) and to take over the vehicle registration documents from us.
We will take this opportunity to give you the old TÜV and ASU certificats, etc., as discussed.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Renault Clio Williams
Good morning dear Butchers,
Unfortunately I do not have any time this weekend. We must make another appointment.
Until now I have not been told how expensive the repairs will be.
If you should have the possibility to give the car to another person, and we can come to an agreement without legal
assistance, I would not say no to this suggestion.
I will freely forfeit my deposit of DM 1.000.- as my contribution towards the repairs.
I hope that this case does not develop into a legal battle, and await your answer.
I wish you a nice day.
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:38 PM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Dear Mr Schrödter,
With reference to your E-Mail dated 23.10.2001, as you surely know, you are legally bound by the contract made with us.
After discussing this with our solicitor we are prepared to make you the following offer:
We can only agree to cancelling this contract if
* you print out the attached waiver agreement twice, and sign both copies
* you send us both copies by Fax (and the originals by post)
* and we countersign and return one copy of this agreement to you
Only then can the ADAC Sales Contract loose its validity.
Please also return to us with both copies of this waiver agreement the two empty Williams Grand Prix Engineering wine
bottles and the four serviettes, because these only become your possession when you purchase the car!
We will try to sell the Clio Williams to someone else, and will then send one copy of the waiver with our signature back
to you as confirmation of our agreement, as soon as we have sold the car. If we do not manage to do this before the
15.11.2001, we will have no choice but to enforce the execution of the ADAC Sales Contract, if necessary with legal action.
In order to give us the chance to sell the car as soon as possible, we expect your earliest reply. We are certain that this
is also in your own interest.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: DELIVERY ADDRESS
Hello Butchers,
Please pass on to me the address details of where I should send the bottles, serviettes and original documents !
They will be sent with tracking number: 7013 1055683 4 via www.germanparcel.de.
I need a reply before 15:00 hours, because the packet will be collected from me then. If I don't hear anything from you by
then, I will simply send them to your home address.
I hope that is OK ?!
Because I have fulfilled my part of the deal, I would ask you to fax a signed copy back to me first, before I receive the
original.
Here is my fax number again: 07135 - 955959 please before Friday 12:00 !!!
Many thanks in advance.
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: DELIVERY ADDRESS
Hello,
Delivery address = home address
Regards
A. & D. Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:13 PM
Subject: DELIVERY ADDRESS
And a Hello back,
The package will be sent today, delivery including the original documents normally tomorrow. THERE MUST BE SOMEONE AT HOME
THOUGH !
Regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: Waiver
Dear Butchers,
I would like to point out to you that as I have mentioned several times, I will not be in the office after today Friday
26.10.2001, and so will not have any possibility to receive the waiver signed by yourselves.
Because I have fulfilled the details of our contract as discussed, I therefore demand once again that you send this
paperwork to me before 12:00 today to the fax number: 07135 - 955959.
I have sent your wine bottles and the original documents with the tracking number: 7013 1055683 4 via German Parcel.
I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that I will pass on the complete correspondance - including the
witness statements from Mr Obenland - to my solicitor today at 14:00.
The 1.000.- DM payment towards the repairs as mentioned in the waiver is a voluntary donation, which I will claim back if
necessary.
I hope that you understand, and remain until receipt of the waiver....
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
Friday, 26.10.00 at 08.02
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:07 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr Schrödter,
We would like to point out to you that - as previously mentioned - we are trying to sell the Clio Williams to someone else.
IF we are successfull here (and only then) will we countersign the waiver and return it to you, releasing you from
your contractual obligations to purchase the car from us for the agreed price. If we do not manage to sell the car on
before the 15.11.01, then we will enforce the existing ADAC Sales Contract with you.
We are doing you a favour with this suggestion (because you are still legally bound to purchase the car from us), but if
you cannot wait until 15.11.01 at the latest, we are quite prepared to stop our efforts and sell the car to you for the
agreed price.
Last Sunday someone (allegedly from Austria) contacted us; he wants to buy the car and assurred us that he will visit us
tomorrow to collect the car. If this promise turns out to be true, we will sell the car to him and return the
countersigned waiver to you.
We had understood you to say that you wanted to settle this matter amicably and without involving solicitors. If you have
now changed your mind, please let us know as soon as possible, so that we can stop wasting our time with this continual
E-Mail correspondance. We will then appoint our solicitor to take this matter over from us. We have been in contact with
our solicitor since Monday 22.10.01, and require a response from you before
17:00 today
whether we should contact the person in Austria and inform him that we cannot sell the car to him.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Dear Butchers,
I have already demonstrated to you by signing the waiver that I wish to distance myself from our Sales Contract.
I have fulfilled my part of our agreement, please do the same !
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:23 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Mr Schrödter,
Here is a brief update about the current situation with the Clio Williams.
We have been in (constant) E-Mail contact since last Sunday with someone in Austria who wants to buy the car. He had
assurred us that he will visit us this weekend with cash and a trailer to collect the car. Because of difficulties with
the Customs formalities, he had to cancel at short notice and has suggested to visit us next weekend.
Because we have two other potential purchasors, we expect proof from the Austrian that he has transferred the agreed price
into our bank account before tomorrow evening (Monday 29.10.01). Even then it will take until the end of the week before
the deal can be closed and we can sign and return the waiver to you. If the Austrian does not meet our conditions, we will
contact both of the other potential purchasors tomorrow evening.
We appreciate that you would like to conclude this issue as soon as possible (so would we). we hope that you can be a
little more patient. If you involve your solicitor - as you threatened last Friday - to try and get out of the Sales
Contract that you made with us, you will leave us no option but to request that our solicitor enforces this contract with
you.
We will keep you informed of any progress.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Kai Schrödter
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Dear Butchers,
I have not consulted my solicitor up until today, because I still hope that we can resolve this issue without legal
proceedings.
I will give you the time that you need.
Please keep me informed of any progress.
Best regards
Kai Schrödter
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Kai Schrödter
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:34 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr Schrödter,
I have attempted to do you a (further) favour and sell the car to someone else.
In the meantime it has become clear that it will not be possible for me to sell the car in the condition in which you left
it here (i.e. loss of power caused by blocked pipe out of catalyser, damaged driveshaft gaiter, apparently no oil pressure
caused by the molten cable to the dashboard). According to Renault Rhein-Sieg these damages were caused by you driving for
a long time at high speed with a faulty catalyser.
As a result of these facts I would like to ask you to send me confirmation that you will either
1) transfer the outstanding sum of DM 17.500,- (plus DM 91,76 for the estimate for repairs that you requested from Renault
Rhein-Sieg) into my account before Friday 2nd November 2001, and collect the Clio at a later date (see * below),
or
2) visit us on Thursday 1st November or over the weekend (03./04.11.01), to pay the above mentioned amount of
DM 17.591,76 in cash and collect the car immediately (or later).
If you do not agree to either of these conditions, I will have no choice but to appoint my solicitor to enforce the
legally-binding ADAC Sales Contract.
* I rent a single enclosed garage in the next village, which I have already paid for in advance until the end of this year.
I am prepared to store the Clio Williams free of charge there for you until 31.12.2001, to give you the chance to collect
the car at a more convenient time for yourself.
At the vehicle handover I will gladly give you the names and addresses of the other potential purchasors that have
contacted me recently. Amongst them is someone who is allegedly an Austrian from Graz, who sent us the following statement
via E-Mail:
"I am prepared to offer even more for the car, if other potential purchasors have already contacted you. It is only
important to me that the bodyshell is not damaged, I have stored the rest of these cars in the garage on various
shelves."
Unfortunately he hasn't managed to visit us yet; it would be easier for you to deal with him, because he will only need to
travel to Heilbronn if you can make a deal with him.
Because you have neither reacted to my last E-Mail (which I sent to you 6 days ago on 30.10.2001) nor responded to the
deadline of 2nd November 2001 that I set in this E-Mail, I was forced to make an appointment with my solicitor
today.
My solicitor (Mr Litzau, Jakobs & Partners, Siegburg) has confirmed that the signed ADAC Sales Contract is valid and
that you are in breach of said contract. I insist that you honour this contract and demand for the last time that you pay
the sum of DM 17.591,76 (comprised of the outstanding amount for the car purchase of DM 17.500,- + DM 91,76 for the
estimate to repair from Renault Rhein-Sieg) before the 15th November 2001. My bank account details are as
follows:....
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that - if you ignore this deadline - significantly higher costs will be
incurred by yourself, because you must pay the compensation for being in arrears (for my solicitor and possible court
costs).
Best regards
David Butcher
cc. Herr Litzau, Jakobs & Partners, Siegburg
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Good afternoon !
I have just returned home from a business trip, and have seen a description of a Clio Williams written by you in
www.mobile.de
Up until 5 years ago, I drove a Williams Group A in rally sport with the serial number 111, hence this number is integrated
into my e-mail address. I have been looking since then for a bodyshell with few kilometres.
I hope that you still have the car, if so I will purchase it immediately, without seeing it. Even the mechanical condition
of the car is unimportant, because I still have shelves full of spare parts for these cars.
Please do not misunderstand me. I definitely don't want to take part in any races with this car, I just want it as a second
or third car for the summer, and it is becoming more and more difficult to get hold of one of these cars.
I am prepared to offer even more for the car, if other potential purchasors have already contacted you. It is only
important to me that the bodyshell is not damaged, I have stored the rest of these cars in the garage on various shelves.
I will be on a business trip until and including Wednesday, and would be pleased to hear of any positive developments from
you after then.
Best regards
Michael Ober
_________________________________________________________________
Download MSN Explorer free of charge under http://explorer.msn.de/intl.asp
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Renault Clio Williams
Dear Mr Ober,
Many thanks for your E-Mail.
We signed an ADAC Sales Contract on Saturday (yesterday) with another interested party. After paying the full purchase
price in cash this person began his homewards journey with the Clio Williams towards Stuttgart. After 35 minutes he phoned
us from 90 km away and complained that the car would only do about 140 km/h now and was loosing oil. He decided to drive
with the Clio in this condition back to our house!
We signed a new Sales Contract with him and agreed that he would leave a deposit, the car, registration papers and keys
with us. At his request, we have towed the car to a Renault garage and are now awaiting the results ...
The purchasor has committed himself in writing to pay for the costs of repair and is also bound by the ADAC Sales Contract
to pay us the balance of the purchase price. If the estimate for repairs from Renault is too high and the purchasor
decides not to continue with the purchase of the Clio, we could enforce the legally binding Sale Contract with him or, if
you are still interested after the explanation above, we could sell the car to you.
Should we keep you informed of developments?
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Good Morning,
I have shifted my business appointments for organisational reasons to next week, and thus I can reply to you this morning.
As previously explained, only the condition of the bodywork is important to me, I can easily and quickly resolve the other
mechanical problems.
Could you please pass on the name and possibly the Email address of the purchasor to me ? I would like to make contact with
him, to establish how good my chances to get this car are. I am prepared to immediately take on this car, even with the
described faults, if the bodywork is in good condition.
I am Austrian and live in Graz. I will send you a Sales Contract immediately via Email, or to the purchasor, for the
desired amount of 19.900.- DM or even more, to cover the costs of recovery. If I purchase, I will pay cash immediately.
I have access to a car trailer, which I can load the car onto and transport away.
All that I require from you is the address of the purchasor, and your and the purchasors' agreement. I need the vehicle
registration document number and chassis number of the car in advance for the Customs Duty at the border.
I could be with you this Friday at the latest to collect the car, and this will probably help everyone - the purchasor,
yourself and myself - as I see the situation.
You could also make contact with the purchasor, but someone just needs to inform me as soon as possible.
Best regards
Michel Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Renault Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
Many thanks for your E-Mail.
Because not only the purchasor, but also ourselves are bound by the contract, unfortunately we cannot accept you offer at
this time.
Only after the purchasor may lose interest in the car because of the estimate for repairs from Renault will we have some
slack. However this process may take some time.
We will gladly keep you informed of any developments!
Here is the web site address of our Clio, with several pictures and data that may interest you: www.2butcher.de/cliowilliams-g.html
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:58 AM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Hello Mr Butcher,
I have taken the liberty of enclosing a Sales Contract as an attachment. Unfortunately the only sales contract that I can
find on-line is at autoscout24.de.
If the purchasor doesn't want the car, please complete the fields in this document in "Word" and send it back to
me.
I am prepared to pay the sum of 19.900.- DM that you require for the car. I have looked at the pictures of the Clio on your
home page and am very impressed.
I don't need the winter tyres, radio and loudspeakers.
Would you be so good as to make contact with the purchasor, to establish what he is prepared to do to distance himself from
the sale ? I am prepared to assist here financially also.
In order to avoid any hassle for you, I will gladly contact the purchasor quickly, because in the near future I will be
very busy professionally.
It is very, very difficult to find a Clio Williams especially here in Austria, and additionally one with such a low mileage,
therefore I would definitely like to buy your car, because I have, as previously stated, shelves full of spare parts.
Including a complete engine/gearbox assembly from a Clio Maxi and several Group A short engines.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:14 AM
Subject: Sales Contract
Hello Mr Butcher,
Unfortunately, because of an internal failure with my Email-Provider, it is not possible to send you the Sales Contract.
Perhaps you could look briefly under: www.autoscout24.de,
you can download a Sales Contract as a "Word" or "PDF" Document.
If I have understood you correctly, you are still in possession of the Vehicle Regsitration Documents; this data is very
important for the customs.
I don't want to hassle you at all, but I would like to accelerate the case, because for me - as previously described - it
is not an issue to get the mechanical problems sorted out.
Therefore I'm asking you, because I have no other option, to briefly contact the purchaser, to clarify this detail with him.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 8:17 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr. Butcher,
Unfortunately you haven't replied to either of my Emails yesterday, so I just want to be certain that you have actually
received them.
I wanted to send you a Sales Contract in advance, in case your car is not yet sold yet. Unfortunately this didn't work,
because this facility has been temporarily suspended by "hotmail".
I am still as ever very interested in your car. Please keep me informed of the situation.
You only need to give me a date and the purchase price, and I will be there with a trailer to collect the car even if it is
not driveable at the moment, this is not a problem for me, as previously explained.
There are only 12 road-registered Clio Williams in the entire county of Steiermark in Austria ! And about another 5 Group N
cars which take part in hill-climb racing.
The prices here in Austria bear no relationship to Germany.
For example, I would have to pay DM 20.000.- for a car with 140.000 km, if I could find one at all.
For this reason alone your car is a real "bargain" for me.
I will happily send you or bring to you pictures and files from my ex-works car. You will be surprised.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Good morning Mr Ober,
You will be pleased to hear that we have almost found a possible solution for you!
My husband has asked me to send you the requested details.
In case we can come to a quick agreement with the current purchasor, could you come to us this Saturday with a trailer (or
is that too short notice?)
If not, please give us several alternative dates, because we require this for the negotiations with the above-mentioned
person.
We will contact you again this evening via E-Mail, to inform you of the latest updates.
Is this OK for you??
Best regards
Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 1:06 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Good Day !
Saturday is absolutely no problem for me !
I will gladly come with a trailer and bring the 19.900.- DM for you with me.
I would like to know from you how far the discussions with other people have proceeded, because I must fill out a customs
form in advance.
I can only do this once I have received an OK from you, because I will have to pay ca. 500.-DM for this.
I would be happy if we could come to a business deal.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
In order to give you a clear picture, here are some further details:
The TÜV and ASU for the Clio Williams expired on 20th April 2001. Since then we have not used the car, but
we did get a quote for a new TÜV & ASU certificate. 4 new tyres at a total of DM 800,- (from www.reifendirect.de)
are required - the original tyres still have lots of tread, but were manufactured in 04/92) - plus the cost of a new
catalyser (rattles on tickover) at DM 1.200,-.
The first potential purchasor of our Clio Williams wanted to buy the car without a valid TÜV & ASU certificate and
collect it as quickly as possible (to ensure that no-one else bought it). We agreed that he could collect the Clio last
Saturday (20.10.2001) and take it back to Stuttgart either on a trailer or with temporary number plates.
The purchasor actually came on Saturday, signed the ADAC Sales Contract, paid the agreed amount in cash in full and drove
away in the Clio (without a valid TÜV, ASU or Insurance Cover).
After 99 km and 35 minutes he 'phoned me to explain that the Clio had lost power (maximum speed was now only 150 km/h) and
was also losing oil. Because he couldn't simply leave the car or ask the ADAC for assistance (because of the illegal
condition), he drove slowly back to our house. After he had asked for our help, we gave him his money back, we signed a
new ADAC Sales Contract and he agreed in writing to pay for the repairs to the Clio.
We then towed the Clio - as agreed with the purchasor - to a Renault garage on Sunday. On Monday afternoon the garage
informed us and the purchasor that the catalyser was blocked and therefore overheated, which also melted the driveshaft
gaiter and the cable from the oil pressure sensor (so the steering rack and catalyser were covered with grease from the
driveshaft, not oil). The cost of the repairs amounts to DM 2.300,-.
Both parties are legally bound to the ADAC Sales Contract - i.e. the purchasor must pay the full price for the Clio, plus
the cost of repairs (or take over the car in its current condition).
We will contact a solicitor tomorrow to establish what we require from the current purchasor to get out of the Sales
Contract.
So much for the current situation.
If we can get the required documentation and/or signatures from the current purchasor by Friday, is it possible that you
could get the Customs Forms that you require at such short notice? If not, we could meet up on Saturday 3rd
November 2001.
To ensure that you don't drive the long way from Graz to here and are then disappointed, we would like to point out to you
that - although we are certain that it will hardly be possible to find a better Clio Williams than ours - it is not 100%
perfect. In addition to the above faults (tyres, catalyser, driveshaft gaiter, oil pressure sensor cable), the rims are
slightly nibbled (see the photograph on our web site), the middle silencer is missing (the previous owner had replaced this
with a stainless steel pipe), the front fog lamps are misty inside and the brake fluid and (original) camshaft belt must be
renewed.
Are you still interested? If so, we could send you in advance an ADAC Sales Contract via E-Mail, that we can complete and
sign when we meet up on Saturday 27th Oktober 2001 (or 03.11.01), and exchange DM 19.900,- in cash for the car
papers. We have a hotel in the village, and we will gladly book a room for you (DM 90,- including breakfast), if you want
to have a pause before the journey home (and we will have the chance to see your photographs, as offered!).
Looking forward to hearing from you again.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 8:05 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Good Morning,
After your description, you can obviously send me the Sales Contract immediately. As explained frequently before, I have no
problem with carrying out the work that you have described myself.
I would prefer to do this work myself, because I will then be certain that everything has been done properly.
The minor "blemishes" that you have mentioned to me are absolutely no problem for me, and no obstacle to buying
the car.
I have new original Speedline rims at home ! in 15" and 16" diameter.
According to our law, a brief written agreement from the purchaser and vendor is sufficient to cancel a private Sales
Contract.
Contact the purchaser, a brief telephone call or Email quickly clarifies such things.
If the purchaser is no longer interested, or wants to get out of the Sales Contract, then you are no longer bound as Vendor
to this contract.
Or have I understood this incorrectly ?
A pre-registration at the customs is not absolutely necessary, but will shorten the import process for me. I will leave
here on Friday night, so that I can meet you as requested on Saturday.
Unfortunately only 80 km/h per hour is allowed in Germany with a trailer, and I am ca. 800 km away from you. There are two
of us coming, so we can easily change over during the journey.
You coud send me a Sales Contract as already suggested, and enter the "faults" with the car. I will guarantee you
to collect the car on a trailer and will leave the money in DM cash with you on handover.
If I can be of any more help to you, then please come back to me briefly. I will be in front of the computer all day today,
so can quickly answer all of your questions.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
Many thanks for your E-Mail.
After discussing this with our solicitor, we have sent a waiver form to the purchasor in the meantime.
Now we just have to wait until he signs and returns this to us, before we can sell the car to you.
Obviously we hope that we will receive this waiver tomorrow.
Please appreciate that we must clear this situation up first - the waiting is just as difficult for us as for yourself!!
We will contact you again as soon as we have any information.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:23 AM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Good morning,
We have just received the signed waiver from the purchasor by fax. Although we would ideally like to have the original
copy, according to our solicitor, it is sufficient as a fax for us to proceed further !
We will be at home all weekend (not just on Saturday), so if you want to divide up the drive to us differently, then we
don't have a problem with this.
Here is a short desription of how to find us ....
We look forward to hearing from you if (and when) you are coming.
Regards
Andrea & David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:45 AM
Subject: Renault Clio Williams
Good Morning !
I am pleased to hear this news. I will go to the Bank today, to order the sum of DM 20.000.-, because we pay in Schillings
here, and you will obviously not be happy with this.
I will contact you again after I have spoken to my passenger, as soon as I know how we will divide up the journey.
I think that will be this evening or tomorrow morning at the latest.
Is the cancellation of the Sales Contract 100% certain ? I do not want to drive over 800KM, and then establish that the
other purchasor has changed his mind. I hope that you can appreciate this.
Until this evening or tomorrow morning.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Renault Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
Obviously we appreciate your concerns. However, we are certain that nothing else now stands in the way of selling our
Williams to you (as we said earlier, it is important to us that the Clio gets a good new home).
The purchasor has confirmed with his signature that he does not want the car any more and wants to withdraw from the Sales
Contract. According to our solicitor, it would be better if we had received the original of this waiver (by post), which
could take some time - meaning that a meeting this Saturday is not possible).
However. the fact that the purchasor has met our requirements and returned the signed waiver immediately proves to us that
there will not be any problems here.
So if you can visit us and purchase the car with an ADAC Sales Contract for the agreed DM 19.900,-, we will look forward
to getting to know you.
Until then,
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: Collection of Clio Williams
Dear Butchers,
Our action is slowly coming to an end, and we will soon relocate the Clio to Austria.
Before then I need the following items from you, that are important for me, the Customs and the Austrian State.
Please send me in advance the Sales Contract with your data.
How far is the situation with the "other purchasor" resolved until now ?
Excuse my mistrust, but I do not want to drive such along way to return with empty hands.
So he has already signed a "cancellation agreement". Have you acknowledged or accepted this already ?
I have the feeling that he may change his mind at the last moment, and that would be a great pity.
I have not contacted my passenger yet, so I will have to get back to you tomorrow morning, perhaps by telephone, otherwise
as usual by email, to discuss my arrival appointment with you, because I don't have any further access to a PC today.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Collection of the Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
We only have the ADAC Sales Contract in Acrobat Reader-Format, which means that we cannot enter anything directly into it.
Therefore we have printed it out, completed it, scanned it back in and attached it to this E-Mail. Is this adequate for the
Customs Office? We could either use this copy of the Sales Contract, or complete and sign a new Sales Contract when you are
here (which will be easier to read than the scanned in version).
The "first purchasor" has sent us in advance a signed copy of the waiver that we compiled (via an ADAC solicitor),
confirming that he wants to retreat from the purchase of the Clio. He has also repeatedly assured us of this via E-Mail. We
have not yet signed and returned this waiver, because we have to retain the option of enforcing the Sales Contract entered
into with him - if you don't buy the Williams. We think that it is highly unlikely that the "first purchasor"
will now decide to buy the car - and even if so, he has given up this right with the signed waiver!
We can understand your suspicion, but can assure you that we will definitely sell the car to you under the conditions
already agreed via "e-mail" (ADAC Sales Contract, payment of DM 19.900,- in cash, transport of the car on a
trailer, with known "faults"), if you visit us this weekend (27./28.10.).
We also have every reason to be suspicious, because we have received both the following e-mails from the "first
purchasor":
Wednesday, July 11, 2001 7:52 AM
Yes, this car sounds very interesting. I already own 3 examples of these cars.
A Williams Phase I 10/93 with 9.400 KM on the clock
A Williams Swiss Championat with almost 40.000
A Williams Group A with ca. 230 bhp (EX-Renault Works Car......)
Because I have a soft spot for these cars, I must admit that your offer sounds very interesting.
Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:01 PM
I myself currently have a Williams with just over 50.000 KM on the clock, which I only drive in good weather.
When he visited us here on 20.10.01 he told us that he had sold his fine weather Clio (in the previous 3 days? and what
happened to the other 2 Clios?)
We received your first e-mail on Sunday, October 21, 2001 3:09 PM, only a short time after the "first purchasor"
had returned home. Because of your hotmail.com e-mail address we cannot see whether you genuinely live in Austria, or if
you are the "first purchasor" or a friend of his, who is acting in his interests to get him released as soon as
possible from his legal obligations to buy the car. We are also wondering how you know that we live ca. 800 km away from you?
We hope that you can also understand our concerns. As a result of our bad experiences with the above-mentioned person, we
are determined to cover ourselves - i.e. we will only release him from the Sales Contract once we have sold the Clio
Williams to you.
We are car enthusiasts, and especially for Renaults. We bought a brand new white R5 GT Turbo (right-hand-drive), which we
sold after 10 1/2 years and over 147,000 miles with heavy hearts, and attended the 100-year Renault birthday party
(huge celebrations!) in May 1998 in Paris in our black R5 GT Turbo EBS Convertible (also right-hand-drive, one of only 14
ever made), and we only sold this car last year to another Renault Fan in England. We hope that we have found a similar
enthusiast in you, and we would therefore be very happy if we could sell our Clio Williams to good hands. Obviously we
appreciate that because of your long journey from Austria and back that you will not have much time to show us the pictures
and file from you ex-works Clio Williams. Perhaps we could visit "our" Williams in its new home, the next time
that we are in Austria?
If you have any thoughts, perhaps we could discuss these briefly via telephone? Our telephone/fax number is: 0049 - 22 47 -
300 165. If we are not there, please leave a message on our Answerphone.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:44 AM
Subject: Collection of Clio Williams
Good Morning !
I certainly don't want to intervene, but my intention is simply to buy this car, and not to get involved in any
"discussions".
I can give the following answers to your questions, and hope thereby to be excused:
1. In Internet at www.reiseplanung.de and then
under Europareise you can enter the data (your address is in the advertisement in mobile.de) and you will arrive at this
distance. I took the liberty of doing this.
2. It doesn't matter to me how or what you have negotiated with the previous purchasor, but I don't want to come and have
to leave without the car.
3. About my Email Address: We do not have a provider here in Austria similar to Germany: Telekom etc... Here one must find
alternatives, and this address with hotmail is common in Austria.
4. I don't know the previous purchasor ! This is unfortunately difficult to prove, but this is also not a disqualifier for
the purchase.
I hope to be able to explain everything to you this afternoon, either by telephone or in writing by email.
I have submitted the paperwork to the Customs, organised the trailer and am waiting for news from my passenger, who must
first get away from work
Regards
Michael Ober
To point 4. above - are you certain that you don't know Kai Schrödter ? So it must be sheer coincidence that another
person called "Michael Ober" (with exactly the same e-mail address) placed the following entry in Kai's website
guest book ....
On 02.10.2001 at 09:17:00 Michael Ober wrote
Hello Kai !
I have already seen you this year in Dudenhofen and Oberhausen on the track. Jürgen and you can make life very
difficult for the "big boys". I hope to see you again this year in the 6 Day Races !!
Regards Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Collection of Clio Williams
Hello Mr Ober,
Please do not misunderstand us. We don't want to put you off, however if you had seen the correspondance with the
"current purchasor", you would probably appreciate our reaction (we can let you read this once you are here).
We didn't know that our address was on the mobile.de web site .... our experiences with the "first purchasor"
have begun to make us a little "paranoid"! Sorry.
We are still looking forward to meeting you personally, and await your response as to roughly when you can visit us.
Very best regards!
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 6:53 PM
Subject: The Clio !
Good Evening !
After I spent 6 hours today (!!!!!!) at the Customs Office, I hav elost several nerves but have gained some knowledge.
After I received the Sales Contract (thank you again) I printed it out, and went straight to the Customs Office today.
There I was told the following:
1. I can only import a car if it has been deregistered in the previous country.
2. The Sales Contract will only be accepted if a copy of your Passport is attached, and the Contract is signed.
3. I cannot use any Customs crossing point.
4. I need a copy of the vehicle registration document (a scan is sufficient)
So, that is the current situation, and to get that far one must spend 6 hours in the Customs Offices in Austria.
I suggest that you sign and send to me the scanned Sales Contract, which is clearly legible, with a scan of your Passport.
I will countersign the Contract and scan my Passport in.
Then we both have the safety that we need.
I hope that you find this suggestion acceptable.
Is it possible that you could deregister the car tomorrow, or are all the Civil Servant Offices closed ?
Please reply soonest, in case I have to cancel the arrangements for the trailer.
Unfortunately I didn't reach you by telephone. After 3 rings the anserphone switched in, and I hate answerphones.
Please let me know what you prefer.
I will look again in my Computer, because I have to go to a meeting in the Town Hall now.
I hope that I am not making too much work for you.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Der Clio !
Hello Mr Ober,
If the car must be deregistered before you can collect it, we cannot do this before Monday morning.
It seems very unfair to us that the Customs Office expects you (and us) to sign a legally binding Sales Contract before you
have even seen the car. We will check what our paperwork local German Vehicle Licencing Office expects from us, if we want
to sell the car to Austria. Within Germany, only the ownership of the vehicle must only be transferred.
We would like to bring the deal with you to a close, therefore we suggest:
Instead of driving up to us with a trailer today, why don't you visit us this weekend without a trailer, to view the car in
peace and quiet. We will "relieve" you of the agreed amount of DM 19.900,- and sign a suitable Sales Contract
with you.
We can enter in this Sales Contract as a special condition that we will deregister the car for you at our Vehicle Licencing
Office on Monday (the Vehicle Registration Document will be retained by the Vehicle Licencing Office, a Certificate will be
issued to confirm that the vehicle is deregistered and will be exported out of Germany, and the Vehicle Ownership papers
will be modified to show the transfer). We will send you the Deregistration Certificate and the modified Vehicle Ownership
papers by recorded delivery (and beforehand by fax) on the same day. You must then have all the necessary documentation
that the Customs Office requires from you, and we can store the car in our garage for you until the end of the year, to
give you time to collect the car with a trailer at your convenience. We will pay for your additional petrol costs for this
"viewing journey" (2 x 900 km at 10 l/km at DM 2,- per litre = DM 360,-), if you purchase the Williams - i.e.
instead of DM 19.900,-, you only have to pay DM 19.400,- for the Williams.
ALthough this is somewhat unusual, we think this is the simplest possibility. You will then have all the photocopies that
you need (Passport, Vehicle Registration Document and Ownership papers, ORIGINAL Sales Contract, etc.) and the security
that the car belongs to you.
We had a similar problem when we purchased our black Renault 5 GT Turbo EBS Convertible in London. In order to be certain
that the car would not be sold to anyone else before we could collect it, we transferred the full slaes price in advance.
We then drove across to England, saw the car, signed the Sales Contract and collected the car - and did all the necessary
formalities for the export, import and reregistration later. Hard work, but it was worth it!
We look forward to a positive answer from you.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: The Clio !
Good morning Dear Butchers,
I have been trying since 06:00 am this morning to get any further information about the importation. Unfortunately as yet
without any success.
I like your suggestion, but unfortunately there is no longer enough time to visit you. I'm sure that you can appreciate
that I would rather do everything in one go, to save the drive.
It is important to me, as you surely know, that the car does not have any damage to the bodywork, you have written and
described the rest to me already.
If I manage to contact you by telephone, I will make an appointment with you later.
I would like to take you up on your offer, and stay overnight in the local Hotel. I think I will visit you tomorrow, I just
need to get Monday as a holiday approved by my boss, then there is nothing else in the way of our meeting.
Perhaps I will take the train for the distance, but I will see what I can do.
Have a nice day, and until later
Michael Ober
(who doesn't get a Williams today..... :o( ! )
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: The Clio !
Hello Mr Ober,
It is certainly a good idea to travel up by train. If you are going to visit us on Sunday by train, we will gladly collect
you - because we live out in the countryside - from a main railway station (i.e. Frankfurt, Cologne or Bonn).
Looking forward to hearing from you again.
Until then,
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: The Clio !
Hello,
We have thought about your train suggestion again.
If you can come to the main railway station in Cologne or Bonn on Sunday, we can get all the formalities out of the way and
then drive with you to the local Vehicle Registration Office on Monday morning (07:30 am) to complete all the paperwork
together. The advantage is that you will only need to leave the car and keys here, but otherwise will have everything that
you require to bring the car into Austria (Sales Contract, Vehicle Ownership papers, Deregistration Certificate, Number
Plates, etc.)
After this we will obviously take you back to the Cologne or Bonn main railway station, so that you can begin your journey
back home in comfort.
Instead of the petrol costs, we will pay for your train ticket (i.e. the offered price reduction of DM 19.400,- remains).
Until later,
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 4:33 PM
Subject: The Clio !
Hello,
My Birthday (26th October) is a Public Holiday in Austria. You were really very lucky to find a Customs Office
that was open with a helpful Civil Servant who was prepared to spend 6 hours with you on this public holiday.
According to www.bmf.gv.at/zollreis/reise/fahrzeug.htm
you do not need to complete any forms for the Customs if you import a secondhand car into Austria (EEC!?). So why do you
need a scanned and signed copy of the Sales Contract, plus a scan of the vehicle registration document and my passport?
Does this help you any further?
Best regards
David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 4:38 PM
Subject: The Clio !
Hello ,
Unfortunately we must postpone the Clio theme until probably next weekend.
I work in a wood mill, and must be in Karnten from Tuesday for the assembly of a log cabin. I cannot take Monday off,
because the final arrangements have to be made then.
I have just returned home from work, and thought that I could do everything, but unfortunately to no avail.
I would prefer it if we could fix something in writing. So that no-one can buy the Clio from under my nose.
I am very sorry that we must postpone our appointment. I wanted to close the deal this weekend, but unfortunately the
Customs are not playing along with me.
I have tried to attach a picture of my Williams 111. I hope that you enjoy it. Please do not be surprised by the colour of
the Clio, but my sponsor was a paint factory, and their house colour was red. The DIAC Works team from Renault was also
silver rather than blue like the "normal" Williams
I will return briefly to my PC later, and eagerly await your answer.
I don't want to get on your nerves with constant Email contact, but it seems to me to be the cheapest way to stay in
contact with you.
Best regards
Your
Michael Ober
(Who doesn't get a Williams today..... :o( ! )
The last time that I placed this photograph on my Clio Williams web page, I received the following e-mail from Michael ....
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Butchers,
I was astonished to establish yesterday that my Clio is on your home page !
I never gave you permission to use this photograph for your own purposes.
I have sent a letter today to my lawyer. I insist that you remove that picture from your home page immediately, I am also
not prepared to tolerate my name on your web site !
I hereby set you a deadline of Monday 14.01.2002
Some legal advice - I would like to caution you that if you ignore this deadline, a claim for compensation will be issued
against you, because there is still information on the photographed car which were and are factory secrets.
Best regards
Michael Ober
What factory secret information coud be seen and used by the competition from this photograph ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: The Clio !
Good morning Mr. Butcher,
Oh ye of little faith, have you ever met a Customs Officer at the border who doesn't work because it is a Friday?
I live ca. 40 KM from the border crossing Spielfeld/Sventilj. Because Bosnia Herzogovia (previously Jugoslavia) doesn't
belong to the EEC, the crossing here is permanently staffed.
Because I am importing the car into Austria, I must pay 16% Value Added Tax in Germany. Because you have investigated this,
you obviously know what tax rules we have here.
Because you are a private individual, I cannot recover the 16% when I import the car at the border, but have to pay our
customs duty again when I register the car.
My concern was only to find a way to avoid paying the 16% VAT, that is ca. 3.800.- DM (I think this is a lot of money)
If I had a signed Sales COntract, and leave the vehicle standing in Germany for a while, then (and only then) have I the
possibility to avoid paying the German tax.
However they couldn't tell me exactly, so I hope to receive more accurate information tomorrow (Monday).
I hope my explanation has helped you, and congratulate you on your Birthday !
Hoping to hear from you again shortly.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: The Clio !
Hello Mr Ober,
It was a good idea to drive to the Austrian-Jugoslavian border.
The first purchasor is very impatient, and wants to resolve this issue as soon as possible (which is also in our interests).
He has already threatened on Friday (26.10.01) to contact his solicitor to get him out of the Sales Contract. If the first
purchasor does appoint his solicitor, this will leave us no option but to instruct our solicitor to enforce the Sales
Contract with the first purchasor. Our solicitor had already assured us on Monday last week that the first purchasor is
legally bound to purchase the Clio Williams from us (unless we countersign and return the waiver that he has already signed
and sent to us - which we will obviously not do until we are 100% certain that we have sold the Williams to someone else).
We have two other people interested in the car, but we have put them on ice until now, because you have assured us several
times that you will visit us this weekend and purchase the car. For whatever reasons, you are now saying that you cannot
visit us until next weekend at the earliest. We do not believe that the first purchasor will wait that long.
Hence our suggestion:
sign both the copies of the Sales Contract that we have already sent you
fax these to us on 00 49 - 2247 - 300 165
send us the two originals by post (recorded and registered delivery)
transfer the full purchase price of DM 19.900,- into our account
fax us a copy of the bank transfer slip
As soon as my bank has confirmed that the DM 19.900,- has landed in my account, we will countersign both copies of the
Sales Contract and send you a copy by fax (if you give us your fax number). We will then deregister the Williams (if you
like, we could inform our local Vehicle Registration Office at the same time that the car will be exported to Austria, so
that the Vehicle Registration Documents can be amended accordingly).
We will then send your copy of the Sales Contract and the Vehicle Registration Document to you by post (registered and
recorded), and return our countersigned copy of the waiver to the first purchasor.
You will then have all the documentation that you need to import the Williams into Austria and can make the arrangements to
collect the Clio at your leisure. We are renting a single, locked garage in the next village, which we have already paid
for until the end of the year (2001). If the car must stay in Germany until after the end of 2001 (for tax purposes), then
we can probably extend the rental agreement for this garage (DM 75,- per month).
If we have not received either the faxed Sales Contract or the money transfer slip from you before Monday evening
(29.10.01), then we must assume that you are not seriously interested in purchasing the Clio Williams, and we will contact
both of the other interested purchasors.
We will be happy if we can finally do a deal on this basis.
Best regards
David & Andrea Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:41 AM
Subject: Sales Contract
Dear Butchers,
I cannot fully understand why I should pay the full amount now, and not as agreed in the previous correspondance a
reduced amount because of my long journey.
You have received a signed Sales Contract as an attachment.
I am applying the following conditions to the purchase of the car:
1. I will pay for the car in CASH on collection, because I have already exchanged the money, and as a result will loose
ca. 500.- DM for buying and selling through the bank.
2. Print out the Sales Contract that I have signed, sign it yourself, scan it back in and send it back to me.
3. I will take the vehicle registration documents with me on collection. The car will be stored until 31.12.01 in
Rosenheim (near Munich) in a Carbox)
You obviously understand that I will not simply transfer 19.900.-DM into an account. I will have nothing in my hand after
the transfer, i.e. the vehicle registration documents.
This style of business is too uncertain for me !
please be at home tonight between 19:00 - 21:00, I will contact you by telephone !
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: The Clio !
Dear Butchers,
As an attachment to my previous letter I would like to additionally point out that a verbal contract already exists as a
result of the offer (your car) and acceptance (my agreement).
The evidence is in our Email correspondance.
Or have I got the issue wrong ?
With regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: Suggestion
Hello !
After our telephone conversation yesterday I have thought about the following:
If you cannot find any other purchasor, and do not want to bind yourself to me (which I fully understand and appreciate),
please simply contact me again, and I am certain that we will find a mutual possibility.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 5:10 PM
Subject: Clio
Hello !
How are you ? I hope you are well !
How does it look, is the car sold, or can I make my way to Germany ?
Regards
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Clio
Hello,
Nothing has changed.
The car was bought by the first purchasor on 20.10.01, but still belongs to me and is still in my possession, because the
first purchasor still hasn't paid the balance due to me. I have just returned this afternoon from an appointment with a
solicitor, and have set the first purchasor a deadline of 15th November, before which he has to pay the balance
due. If this deadline is ignored, I will instruct my solicitor to take legal proceedings to recover the balance due. If
anyone else should pay us the full sales price before the first purchasor does, then we can sell the car to this person and
release the first purchasor from his contractual obligations.
Best regards
David & Andrea (Butcher)
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: Clio
Good morning Butchers,
I ask myself why we should not proceed as I had already suggested to you on the telephone !
I have already sent you a signed Sales Contract, but you have not reacted yet, why not ?
My suggestion is that you scan and send the contract through to me, then we both have the security and are contractually
bound. We can then briefy clarify the collection time. I have got time at weekends.
The DM 20.000.- is already exchanged, and is waiting for a new owner !
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Clio
Hello,
If I were to countersign the Sales Contract that you sent me, fill in a sales price of DM 49.999,00 and then send this back
to you, do you think that we will both be bound by this Sales Contract?? I don't think so either, and this is why I have
saved a sheet of paper and not printed out your attachment.
I do not understand why you are not prepared to pay for the car in advance, in order to be absolutely certain that you will
get the Clio Williams. As mentioned on the telephone and in several e-mails, this is what I did for my Renault 5 GT Turbo
EBS Convertible, because I wanted to be certain of securing the car, whatever else happened.
In any case, it is good to hear that you have some time over the coming weekend - this is your last chance to buy this Clio
Williams! The second deadline for the first purchasor expires next Thursday (15:11.01), and if he has not paid us by then,
we will instruct our solicitor to take legal action to enforce the Sales Contract. We will not be able to offer the car for
sale after 15.11.01.
Because we have a committment that we had postponed from Saturday 27.10.01 to this Saturday 10.11.01 (because you had
promised to visit us on 27.10 or 28.10.01), we will only have time for you on Sunday. Please let us know if you would like
the telephone number and address of a local Hotel where you could stay overnight.
Best regards
David & Andrea (Butcher)
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:47 AM
Subject: Clio
Good morning !
I don't wish to appear impolite, but just take another look at your Clio ! The mileage of the engine is relatively low, but
the work to repair the car for an individual who doesn't know much about Motorsport things is too high.
You will never be able to sell the Clio for this amount to anyone other than myself, because a "normal" person
would NEVER buy the car like that ! Or would you pay out 20.000.- for an 8 year old car that isn't even roadworthy ?
Definitely not !
I coudn't keep the appointment on 27.10 for business reasons, I thank you again now for your understanding, also for the
nice red text with the insinuations at the end on your home page, this is how you make friends !
Because you want to pick a fight with God and the World, before you do yourself any harm, do whatever you think you need to
do !
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Clio
Good evening!
Once again - we had already sold the Clio on 20.10.01, and therefore do not need to find any "normal" person. As
for the work required to put the car back in order, I will simply give the car to a Renault dealer and collect it 2 days
and DM 3.000,- later, complete with new tyres, TÜV and ASU pass certificates.
My fight has nothing to do with God and the World, just with the first purchasor - and because the first purchasor has not
replied to any of our e-mails since 28.10.01, we do not have any other choice. If it continues like this, and the second
deadline of 15.11.01 is ignored, we will also inform the Police that he drove the Clio Williams away without a valid
TÜV, ASU and insurance cover.
If we had found in you a seriously interested purchasor, then we would have been very happy, because the Clio would have
had a better home and we could have released the first purchasor from the Sales Contract. You have never convinced us of
your financial liquidity or that you were seriously interested, but despite that, we had fun exchanging e-mails with you.
We hope that you find your desired Clio Williams (even when it is only in your dreams tonight).
David & Andrea (Butcher)
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Clio
A wonderful good morning !
Fine, it looks as if there is nothing that can be done about the Clio. Unfortunately I cannot talk you around, and must
accept your decision. Great shame !
In theory your argument is nothing to do with me, but with the Police you will probably "shoot yourself in your own
foot" - here a Judge's decision is pretty quickly clear: if you have moved the car out of the garage onto a public
place, or agreed to a test drive, or taken the car to a Renault Garage as described on your web page, then you have broken
the law, or is that different where you are ?
I am certain that the first purchasor had the Double Insurance Card with him, as required in Germany.
My tip: "I wouldn't shoot pidgeons with a cannon here !" but stick to the issues.
ASIDE NOTE: Here in Austria the responsibility lies with the vendor. According to the rule book, that you should also
possibly know about, this law will also be introduced into Germany in 2002.
If you have got any questions about Renaults, then you can contact me at any time. I think that there are only a few models
that I have not yet taken completely apart.
I wish you all the best for the future, and hope for a nice Happy-End with your, (or should I better say) with THE car !
Best regards
Michael Ober
PS. Your Internet presence has inspired me, I will try during the next few weeks also to create a Home Page in the net,
with pictures of my experiences. Perhaps we will meet each other again then.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
As you have probably seen from the updates on our web site, the original "purchasor" had refused to pay for our
Clio Williams.
We have already had a hearing at the County Courts in Heilbronn and it was clear that the judge was on our side. We have
come to an agreement such that if I can sell the car to someone else before the 11.04.02, the original "purchasor"
must only pay for our solicitor and court costs. If we do not manage to sell the car before then, the case will continue
before the courts and we will enforce the Sales Contract from last October, to recover the agreed sales price and the
additional costs that have been incurred since then.
For this reason I have reinserted the Clio Williams under www.mobile.de,
www.ebay.de and www.ebay.co.uk.
If you are still interested in the car (mileage is now 30442 km), please contact us before we sell the car to someone else -
the price is not negotiable, i.e. the same price that the original "purchasor" should have paid - DM 18500
(Euro 9460).
Best regards
David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 8:11 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr. Butcher,
It was obvious - even in October last year - that the original purchasor did not want to buy the car.
You are offering the Clio to me now for 18.500.-DM, although I was prepared to pay 20.000.- DM for it, and you turned down
my offer because you were not convinced of my financial status.
I do not have any time to drive to Germany between the 5th - 7th April, this is already certain.
My offer is: definite collection on 13.04., Sales Contract in writing beforehand, CASH on handover.
Please let me know biefly, so that we can possibly discuss this on the telephone beforehand. Then sign the Sales Contract,
scan this in with your Passport, and send it to me.
I will countersign it and return it to you, with a copy of my Passport attached.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Dear Mr. Ober,
We had sold the car in October for DM 18.500,- , but if you would prefer to pay DM 20.000,-, we could agree to that.
I was happy with the DM 18.500,- and am not trying to get any more money for the Williams. It is more important to me that the
Williams goes to a good home.
It is a shame that you cannot visit us before 10.04.2002. We have a few other interested parties, but cannot assess how serious
they are. If no-one else has a chance to view and purchase the car before Sunday, we will ask our solicitor if we can extend the
deadline by one week (from the 10.04.), which should give you time to view the car on 13.04.02 and to purchase it.
Regards
D. Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:09 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Hello Hr. Butcher,
How are you ? Since our last Email correspondance I have been waiting for a signal from you about the extension to the
deadline. The weekend is approaching fast, I have already applied for leave on Friday, and am waiting for your OK.
Could you please contact me about the Williams ?
I would be grateful.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello,
Unfortunately, our solicitor was on holiday until yesterday, so was only able to inform us today that we CANNOT extend
the deadline - which is a pity, since we had hoped that this was a possibility, because the original purchasor took so long
to get his lies together into a claim that he had to slip the first hearing date twice.
Unfortunately it looks as if no-one (including yourself) is prepared, despite all the promises, to place a deposit of
Euro 1000 or to pay the full purchase price of Euro 9460 and to sign a Sales Contract before the deadline of 12:00
noon on 11.04.02. Therefore we have no alternative but to confirm to our solicitor that he should enforce the original
Sales Contract from last October through the courts in Heilbronn.
We wish you a nice holiday on Friday.
Regards
David.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Ober
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:45 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
And a Hello back from sunny AUSTRIA !
Unfortunately it doesn't look as if we can do any business, because of known circumstances. I must express my regret here,
because I really wanted that car, but the transfer of the money has become too risky for me after our last Email contacts,
because I will have nothing in my hand, and these days I don't even trust my neighbours !
It can be seen from your home page that the Williams recently (I would say ca. 30 months) has been driven under 6.000KM.
One shouldn't let that happen to any car, because it will not get any better as a result.
One should enjoy such a car nowadays, and not in a few years as a "Youngtimer".
I think it should be NO problem to sell a car like this, because bad examples cost a lot of money, and your car has low
mileage and is in a good condition.
If something should happen before the weekend, you will find in me someone who is genuinely interested and will NOT let you
down, but I don't want to hold you back you with unfounded statements.
I hope to hear from you again.
Best regards
Michael Ober
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Hello,
In the last 30 months we haven't driven the Clio Williams 1.800 km (the original purchasor added 202 km to that total). Since we
bought the the Clio, we have driven only 7660 km in over 6 years - we had decided to sell the car because of exactly this reason,
so that at least someone else can enjoy the car.
Regards
David.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Michael Ober
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:50 PM
Subject: Clio Williams Bullshit Award - SECOND PLACE WINNER
Hello Michael,
CONGRATULATIONS. You won SECOND place in the recent Bullshit competition centred around the sale of our Clio Williams.
Points were awarded based upon
a) who could waste the most amount of our time
b) who could tell the most convincing and imaginative lies and
c) who could generally provide the most amount of entertainment - either for us or our web site visitors.
You gained extra bonus points for all the lies and bullshit in your e-mails on 26.10.01 - claiming that you spent 6 hours
at the Zollamt on a Public Holiday, that you cannot have Austrian e-mail addresses ending in .at, and for claiming that
you didn't know Kai Schroedter (it must have been another Michael Ober using your e-mail address who placed an entry on his
friend Kai Schroedter's web site guest book on 02.10.2001 at 09:17:00).
I will be updating our web site (and including some of the more entertaining e-mails that you and the other winners sent
me) within the next few days.
In case you haven't already heard from the third place competitor and the overall winner (I'm sure you know who they are),
we have decided to repair the Clio Williams and keep it for some time - because idiots like you don't deserve cars like
that.
Byeeeeee
David.
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: Query
Hello,
Is the Clio still available ?
If "YES", can something be done about the price ?
Regards Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:49 PM
Subject: Query
Hello Marc,
Many thnaks for your interest.
Is the Clio still available ? YES
Can something be done about the price ? NO
Because of the background (see www.2butcher.de/cliowilliams.html), the DM 18500 (Euro 9460) is a fixed price.
If we cannot sell the car for this amount before the 10.04.02, the case will go to court, in order to enforce the original Sales
Contract.
Regards
David Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:59 PM
Subject: Query
Hello David,
I have read the "story" about the Clio on your home page. It seems to have had a very moving life already.
Is the bodywork rusty ? Are: catalyser, tyres, driveshaft the only parts incl. possibly brake discs that need to be
replaced ?
I am definitely interested in buying the car !
However, I work in Hamburg and live near Munich ! I fly back for the weekends, and must see if I can come to visit you at
the beginning of next week.
How many other interested people have contacted you so far ? I don't want to put myself under pressure, but I don't want to
let the car be bought in front of my nose.
Many thanks in advance for your answer
Regards
Marc
---- TRANSLATED DOWN TO HERE ----
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Query
Hello Marc,
No, the bodywork is not rusty. Because the car has always been stored in a garage and we have only driven about 6000 km
in the last 6 years, the car looks almost as good as new, inside and out.
In order to get a new TÜV and ASU (exhaust gas emissions test), the following must be done:-
1) the catalyser and one driveshaft must be replaced (Euro 1.175,- incl. labour for fitting)
2) the original Michelin tyres (manufactured in April 1992!) still have a lot of tread, but should be replaced simply because
of their age (ca. Euro 100,- each includung fitting and balacing at www.reifendirect.de)
The camshaft drive belt was never changed during the time that we have owned the car.
Steuerriemen wurde in der Zeit in der sich der Wagen in meinem Besitz befindet, nicht gewechselt. Dies sollte trotz des
niedrigen Gesamtkilometerstandes gemacht werden (ca. Euro 250,- inkl. Einbau).
Da der Wagen eine Weile schon nicht mehr gefahren wurde, befindet sich auf den Bremsscheiben Oberflächenrost. Dieser
wird sich wahrscheinlich durch ein paar mal Bremsen selbst abreiben, aus Sicherheitsgründen sollte jedoch die
Bremsflüssigkeit erneuert werden.
Die Kanten der goldfarbenen Alufelgen sind angekrazt (der Vorbesitzer hat sich damit an den Bordstein herangetastet, wenn
er parkte). Laut Auskunft von Firma Belox in Bergisch Gladbach können die Felgen für je Euro 70,- aufpoliert
werden.
Andere Interessenten haben wir aus Köln, Österreich, Schweden und Frankreich (da wir den Williams auch bei eBay
inseriert haben - unter http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1717951653
auf Deutsch und unter http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1717965096
auf Englisch). Bis jetzt hat allerdings nur der Kölner das Auto (zweimal) angesehen, Geld (Anzahlung oder Kaufpreis)
und Kaufvertrag haben wir aber noch von niemandem bekommen und es ist sehr schwierig zu beurteilen, wie seriös
Interessenten sind.
Da wir bis zum 10. April 2002 eine Entscheidung treffen müssen, ob wir den Wagen verkaufen oder den letzten Oktober
abgeschlossenen Kaufvertrag vor Gericht durchzusetzen, haben potentielle Käufer nur dieses kommende Wochenende
Gelegenheit, sich für das Fahrzeug zu entscheiden.
Wenn Du ernsthaft interessiert bist, aber nicht vor dem 10. April 2002 nach Neunkirchen (zwischen Köln und Bonn)
kommen kannst, könnten wir unseren Anwalt fragen, ob uns das Gericht die gesetzte Frist verlängert - können
allerdings nichts versprechen. Wir würden es natürlich vorziehen, wenn der Wagen ein gutes Zuhause bekäme,
anstatt das wir den ursprünglichen Käufer zum Kauf zwingen müßten.
Der glückliche Käufer des Williams bekommt übrigens außerdem zwei leere (eine Rot-, eine Weiß-)
Weinflaschen und vier Servietten von Williams Grand Prix Engineering von der guten Zeit, wo Renault Williams alle F1-Rennen
gewannen!
MfG
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:59 AM
Subject: Query
Good morning David,
Yes, I am very interested in the Clio. In the last editions of Ralley-Racing magazine there have been 2 litre Clios
advertised from time to time. However, these were all sold without exception to Scandinavia. The cars are mostly used there
for ice racing, and the Williams are allowed to start in the next higher class because of the low weight with the 2.0
engine.
(in case you are interested the classes are divided up into 1,4 - 1,8 litres and 2,0 - 2,5 litres) mostly it is the 2,5
6 cylinder models that are left standing on the short ice track.
I would like to take some time off from work, but have the problem that as a Civil Engineer heading a project for my
company in Hamburg, and I am flying home for the first time in 2 weeks this weekend. Unfortunately it is impossible for me
to visit you this weekend.
I think that you will probably have other visits from interested people this weekend. If you haven't sold the car by Monday,
please let me know, because we still have two days before the deadline (until the 10th April ?) is up, and I
think that must be enough time for me to arrange everything, because although I have very little time, I really want that
car.
I have one final question, why are you selling the Williams anyway ? I personally think that there are less than 200 of
these cars registered in Germany. It will never again be possible to buy a Williams as cheaply as now. As a teenager I
always wanted to drive a Renault 5 Turbo. Good examples now are no longer affordable at 20 - 25.000 Euro for a 20 year old
car.... !
Best regards from the sunny North, David !
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
zufälligerweise bin ich selber morgen auf einer Dienstreise in Hamburg !!
Wir haben vor, am Samstag (06.04.) zur Techno Classica nach Essen zu fahren und bis jetzt haben wir keine
Besichtigungstermine für Sonntag ausgemacht - die meisten Interessenten sind weit von uns entfernt und dieses
Wochenende ist auch für sie zu kurzfristig. Daher haben Sie wahrscheinlich gute Chancen, den Wagen Anfang
nächster Woche noch besichtigen zu können. Ich muß jedoch um 08:00 Uhr morgens ins Büro fahren und bin
dann erst um 18:00 Uhr wieder zu Hause, was nicht viel Tageslicht läßt.
Wir haben unserem Anwalt ein Fax geschickt und nachgefragt, ob die Frist verlängert werden kann (auch, weil ein
Interessent aus Österreich nicht vor dem 13.04.02 vorbeikommen kann). Da er leider in Urlaub ist, können wir erst
am 08.04.02 mit seiner Antwort rechnen.
Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob ich klargestellt habe, daß der Clio abgemeldet ist und weder TÜV noch ASU hat. Wenn
Sie eine kurze Probefahrt machen wollten, müßten Kurzzeitkennzeichen besorgt werden (die rechte Antriebswelle
ist noch intakt, aber weil die Gummimanschette geschmolzen ist und so das Schmierfett ausgetreten ist, sollte die komplette
Antriebswelle ersetzt werden, bevor der Clio wieder richtig benutzt wird) - aber da der Katalysator nun blockiert ist, kann
der Motor nicht richtig ausatmen, was natürlich zu einem drastischen Leistungsabfall führt.
Wir haben den Clio weniger als 1.200 km in den letzten 30 Monaten gefahren und es tut keinem Auto gut, zu wenig bewegt zu
werden. Ich weiß, daß ich nie wieder einen so guten Clio Williams wie den meinen kaufen werden kann, aber mir
wäre es lieber, wenn jemand anders den Williams so richtig genießen würde. Wir hatten vor 2 Jahren dasselbe
Problem, als wir unser 1989 Renault 5 GT Turbo Cabrio verkauft hatten. Firma EBS nur 14 rechtsgelenkte Modelle produziert,
von denen weltweit nur noch 7 übrig sind, aber leider kann man nicht alles für immer behalten und wir haben
trotzdem noch 4 andere Autos, die bewegt werden müssen. Das Leben ist schon hart ...
Ich hätte fast 1986 einen der letzten Renault 5 Turbo II nagelneu für DM 26.500,- gekauft, habe mich aber vom
Renault Verkäufer dazu überreden lassen, stattdessen einen neuen Renault 5 GT Turbo für DM 20.500,- zu
kaufen, den ich im Januar 1996 mit 238.000 km für DM 1.800,- verkauft habe, um ihn mit dem Williams zu ersetzen.
Bis nächste Woche?
MFG
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:25 AM
Subject: Query
Hello David,
If you receive this message, please give me your mobile phone number (if available), so that I can contact you when you are
in Hamburg. We could possibly arrange a brief meeting. I will be available after ca. 19.30 hours in the evening.
I have another solution. I could transfer the money for the Clio. This is not a conventional solution, but the only one
that I can think of at the moment. I don't want to stop you from selling the Clio, if it is gone at the weekend, then it is
gone.... but on Monday - if the car is still there - I will transfer the money to you, and we can hopefully then arrange
the collection.
It is really difficult to make definite arrangements for a visit in my situation, but this should not be your problem.
The last time I was interested in a Williams I waited too long, and it was gone. That should not happen to me again this
time.
Please let me know how we should proceed
Regards Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
Dave ist bereits in Hamburg und es ist mir nicht gelungen, ihn zu erreichen. Er hofft, daß er um 13:00 Uhr herum
beim Kunden weg kann und wollte dann noch etwas abholen, bevor er dann den Heimweg antreten kann. Wenn Du erst um 19:30 Uhr
Zeit hast, ist das daher leider nicht machbar - schade.
Die Lösung, das Geld für den Clio zu überweisen, ist zwar nicht gängig, haben wir aber auch schon
gemacht. Wir hatten das R 5 GT Turbo Cabrio damals in England inseriert gesehen, kurz mit dem Händler gesprochen und
dann ohne den Wagen vorher zu sehen den Gesamtpreis überwiesen damit uns das Fahrzeug nicht durch die Finger glitscht.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc.Goelz@web.de
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:46 PM
Subject: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
leider ist mir der Finger ausgerutscht, war noch nicht fertig. Anyway, Dave hat zufällig gerade angerufen.
Tatsächlich ist ihm 19:30 leider zu spät.
Es wäre schön, wenn wir in Dir endlich das gute Zuhause für unseren Clio Williams gefunden hätten,
nachdem wir solange gesucht haben.
Wir melden uns gerne wieder bei Dir, um alles weitere zu regeln.
Schönen Tag noch,
Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:10 AM
Subject: Query
Good morning Andrea and Dave,
Your asking price of 9500Euro for the Clio is not very expensive. Therefore I have decided to transfer the money, to ensure
that no-one else - as Andrea already said - takes the car away from me.
It is not 100% certain when I can collect the car, but I will not make any promises that I cannot keep, therfore I do not
want to fix a date. The most important thing is that you get the money, and we can make the arrangements afterwards (I am
thinking about 14-15.04 is this possible ??)
Please let me know how we should proceed.
I wish you a good day, and hope to receive a positive answer this evening, so that I can properly enjoy my beer (not
Alsterwasser from Hamburg).
Regards to both of you
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
vielen Dank für Deine E-Mail!
Um Dir Gelegenheit zu geben etwas zu unternehmen, nachfolgend Dave's Kontodetails:
Wenn Du uns eine Fax-Nummer geben kannst, können wir Dir übers Wochenende einen ausgefüllten
ADAC-Kaufvertrag zusenden, den Du dann nach Unterschrift an uns zurückfaxen könntest (0 22 47 - 300 165).
Wenn wir alles in der von Dir beschriebenen Abfolge machen können, dann steht der Abholung nach dem 10.04.02
sicherlich nichts im Wege.
Schönen sonnigen Tag noch!
MFG
Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 8:50 AM
Subject: Query
Good morning you two !
Here in Munich, unfortunately I only have a fax machine in the office, and I don't want to go there over the weekend,
because there is work waiting for me there, but I will do this if there is no other alternative.
Have you got the ability to scan in and mail me a Sales Contract ?
I will fill in my address, and will return it to you with the receipt from the money transfer. Which would you prefer, via
Homebanking or via Bank transfer ? It is all the same to me.
I will finalise the arrangements for collectng the car today, and if a friend can help me, it will definitely be next
weekend. Both Hamburg and Munich are a fairly long way away from you. I do not have a towbar on my car, and I will not
drive the car home, but will load it or let it be loaded onto a trialer.
I am pleased that the business is proceeding so easily. If you had not offered me the opportunity to transfer the money,
then I wouldn't have been able to respond so quickly, and the car would possibly already be gone.
Looking forward to an answer from you !
Regards Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Anfrage
Hallo,
leider habe ich keinen Scanner. Ich werde morgen - Sonntag - den ADAC-Kaufvertrag und eine dazugehörige Vereinbarung,
die den Zustand des Fahrzeugs beschreibt, vorbereiten und sie Dir zufaxen, sobald Du mir eine Faxnummer gibst. Wenn Du
möchtest, kann ich Dir die Unterlagen erst Montag zufaxen, wenn Du mir sagst, ab wann Du im Büro bist.
Es ist egal, wie das Geld auf meinem Konto landet, per Homebanking oder Banküberweisung. Aufgrund der beschriebenen
Terminsituation spielt nur der Zeitpunkt eine Rolle. Wenn ich nicht bis Donnerstag, 11. April, 12:00 Uhr, die
Bestätigung meiner Bank bekommen habe, daß die Kaufsumme für den Williams auf meinem Konto eingegangen ist,
muss ich meinen Anwalt beauftragen, der gütlichen Einigung zu widersprechen und den ursprünglichen Kaufvertrag
gerichtlich durchzusetzen.
Als Alternative würde mir auch die Überweisung einer nicht erstattbaren Anzahlung in Höhe von Euro 1.000,-
reichen (bis Donnerstag, 11. April, 12:00 Uhr), die bei Kauf des Williams auf die Verkaufssumme von Euro 9.460,-
angerechnet wird, bzw. bei Nicht-Kauf von mir einbehalten wird (damit ich mein Risiko abgedeckt habe).
Der Clio befindet sich in einer angemieten Einzelgarage im nächsten Dorf. Wir zahlen die Miete bis Ende Mai, so
daß reichlich Zeit bleibt (entweder über die nächsten kommenden Wochenenden oder an einem der Feiertage),
um den Wagen besichtigen (und abholen) zu können.
Gerne höre ich wieder von Dir.
MFG
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:21 PM
Subject: Query
Hello David,
Perhaps I didn't understand this correctly, but I can either transfer the 9.450 Euro, or 1.000 Euro and pay the rest on
handover ?
I was about to transfer the full amount, but your suggestion sounds acceptable to me. I will transfer the 1.000.- Euro to
you, and we can complete the Sales Contract at your house on 14. or 15.04 ?
Then you have the confirmation of my intent to purchase, and I have secured the car.
Have I understood that correctly now ?
Regards
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 4:41 PM
Subject: Anfrage
Hallo Marc
damit auch wir uns absichern können, brauchen wir von Dir bitte einen unterschriebenen Kaufvertrag wie bereits
erwähnt. Wenn Du uns eine Fax-Nummer gibst, schicken wir Dir den vorbereiteten Vertrag samt Sondervereinbarung zu, den
Du dann bitte unterschreibst und zurückfaxt.
Wenn wir bis Donnerstag, 11.04. 12:00 Uhr Deine Anzahlung und unterschriebenen Kaufvertrag haben, (und nur dann)
können wir den Wagen gerne für Dich behalten. Wenn das nicht machbar ist, werden wir den ersten Vertrag
gerichtlich durchsetzen müssen.
Geht das in Ordnung?
MFG
Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Gölz
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: Query
Hello Andrea,
How far is the Kölner Airport from you ? Could you collect me from there on the 11th April ?
The only flight that I can now get, and which is possible for me is:
Flight Number: LH1448
Departure Thursday: 11.04. 17.10 hours from Hamburg
Arrival Thursday: 11.04. 18.05 hours in Köln
Is it possible to stay overnight in a hotel near you ?
2 People
Please pass on the Telephone and Fax number of the hotel, so that I can book myself in.
The collection of the car on a trailer in the morning of 12th April, it is logistically not possible otherwise,
because the trailer is rented out until then, and my neighbour has no time beforehand.
Should the full payment be made or the 1.000 Euro ? Please let me know as soon as possible, otherwise the credit into your
account cannot be guaranteed before Thursday.
I will give you a Fax number from the hotel in Hamburg, the company does not have any offices here.
Before then, please send me immediately news on the above points.
Regards
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
wir müssen unseren Anwalt bis Donnerstag, 11.04. bis 12:00 Uhr informieren, ob wir den ersten Vertrag gerichtlich
durchsetzen wollen.
Wir müssen daher darauf bestehen, eine Anzahlung von Euro 1.000,- als nicht rückerstattbare Summe in Daves Konto
zu haben. Außerdem benötigen wir von Dir einen unterschriebenen ADAC-Kaufvertrag, den wir vorbereiten und Dir
per Fax zusenden werden - wenn wir eine Fax-Nr. hätten.
Solange wir bis zum o.g. Zeitpunkt die Anzahlung und den von Dir unterschriebenen Kaufvertrag erhalten haben, können
wir Dir den Wagen bis Ende Mai 2002 aufheben.
Wir machen uns etwas Sorgen, da jetzt nur noch 48 Stunden bleiben, daß es nicht möglich sein wird dieses
Geschäft abzuschließen. Es wäre schade, wenn Du auch unseren Clio Williams verpassen würdest ...
MFG
Andrea & David
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Anfrage
Hallo Marc,
eine Abholung am Donnerstag abend um 18:05 vom Köln/Bonner Flughafen ist natürlich möglich, der Flughafen
ist ca. 25 km / 30 Minuten von uns entfernt.
Ich würde das Hotel Kurfürst bei uns im Dorf empfehlen -
Hauptstrasse 13,
53819 Neunkirchen,
Deutschland
Tel. 0049 - 2247 - 308-0
Fax 0049 - 2247 - 308-88
Bis dahin?
David.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Marc Gölz
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:49 PM
Subject: Clio Williams Bullshit Award - THIRD PLACE WINNER
Hello Marc,
CONGRATULATIONS. You won THIRD place in the recent Bullshit competition centred around the sale of our Clio Williams.
Points were awarded based upon
a) who could waste the most amount of our time
b) who could tell the most convincing and imaginative lies and
c) who could generally provide the most amount of entertainment - either for us or our web site visitors.
Not bad, considering that you only entered the competition in the last ten days.
I will be updating our web site (and including some of the more entertaining e-mails that you and the other winners sent me)
within the next few days.
In case you haven't already heard from the second place competitor and the overall winner (I'm sure you know who they are),
we have decided to repair the Clio Williams and keep it for some time - because idiots like you don't deserve cars like
that.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: Clio Williams
Guten Tag David Butcher,
ist das in Mobile ausgeschriebene KfZ noch zu erwerben ?
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Dr. Dirk Jabusch
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Clio Williams
Ja, theoretisch ist der Clio Williams noch zu haben .....
.... aber in der Praxis, weil das Landsgericht in Heilbronn uns eine Frist gegeben hat, d.h. wir müssen das Auto bis
Donnerstag mittag 11.04.02 verkaufen oder die Sache weiter vor Gericht verhandeln müssen, haben wir unseren Anwalt
bereits beauftragt, den ursprünglichen Kaufvertrag vom letzten Oktober durchzusetzen.
Nur falls jemand bereit ist, eine nicht rückerstattbare Anzahlung von Euro 1.000,- zu zahlen und einen
dementsprechenden Kaufvertrag zu unterschreiben - alles bis 11.04.02, 12:00 Uhr - können wir unseren Anwalt bremsen.
Wir würden das Auto bis Ende Mai reservieren, was ausreichend Zeit gibt, einen Besichtigungstermin für den Clio
auszumachen. Bei Kauf des Fahrzeugs werden die Euro 1.000,- auf den Kaufpreis von Euro 9.460,- angerechnet, bei Nichtkauf
würde die Anzahlung von uns einbehalten, um unser Risiko abzudecken.
MfG
David Butcher.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:10 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Hello Mr. Butcher,
Then please give me your bank account details and send me the Sales Contract via Email. The ADAC has an appropriate
document on its web site to be downloaded.
Please reply quickly, because a transfer is still possible today, but time is running out.
Please fill out the Sales Contract and send it to me. As soon as I ahve got the Sales Contract, I will countersign it and
transfer the money, with a copy of the transfer to you.
Best regards
Dr. D. Jabusch
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Clio Williams
Hallo Herr Jabusch,
meine Bankdetails sind wie folgt:
Wir hatten bereits mehrere angeblich sehr interessierte Käufer (die m.E. alle etwas mit dem ursprünglichen
Käufer zu tun hatten). Daher haben wir einen bereits vorbereiteten ADAC-Kaufvertrag den wir Ihnen gerne zufaxen, wenn
Sie uns eine Fax-Nummer geben.
Aufgrund der auf meiner Webseite erklärten Situation, haben wir unseren Anwalt bereits instruiert, den
ursprünglichen Kaufvertrag von Oktober 2001 durchzusetzen, was ich rückgängig machen kann, wenn ich vor
Ablauf der Frist die Anzahlung und einen gegenseitig unterschriebenen Vertrag hätte.
MFG
D. Butcher
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:27 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Dear Mr. Butcher,
Please send the signed copy of the Sales Contract to the following Fax number:
0511 / 62626339
Please send the Fax at midday today. Not before 13:00.
The transfer will follow within the next hour.
Best regards
Dr. D. Jabusch
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: Dr. Dirk Jabusch
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 11:28 AM
Subject: Clio Williams
Sehr geehrter Herr Jabusch,
leider haben wir von Ihnen weder eine Zahlung noch einen unterschriebenen Kaufvertrag vor Ablauf der Frist 11.04.02
erhalten, d.h. daß der Ihnen zugesandte Kaufvertrag seine Gültigkeit verloren hat.
Über die letzten paar Monate haben wir sehr viel Zeit mit verschiedenen Zeitverschwendern und Tagträumern
verschwendet, von denen mindestens zwei mit dem ursprünglichen Käufer Kai Schrödter in Verbindung standen.
Da K. Schrödter Rechtsschutzversicherung hatte und wir nicht, haben wir gegen den Rat unseres Anwalts entschieden,
die gütliche Vereinbarung anzunehmen und die Erfüllung des ursprünglichen Kaufvertrag nicht gerichtlich
durchzusetzen. Den einzigen Nachteil, den wir davon haben ist, daß wir den Williams behalten müssen! Wir werden
die auf der Sondervereinbarung aufgelisteten Fehler - inkl. den durch K. Schrödter verursachten Schaden - am Williams
reparieren lassen, um einen neuen TÜV und ASU zu bekommen - damit wir endlich den Clio wieder so richtig
genießen können.
Nachdem wir uns von den schlechten Erfahrungen mit diversen Interessenten über die letzten Monate erholt haben, werden
wir überlegen welches unserer fünf Autos wir verkaufen werden.
Danke für Ihr Interesse.
MFG
D. Butcher
After five repeated attempts to add the following invitation onto Kai Schrödters' web site Guest Book for his visitors
to view this page, (my entry kept disappearing!) ....
Am 17.08.2002 um 23:14:15 Uhr schrieb David Butcher:
Hello Kai,
There is obviously still something wrong with this Guest Book. Not only my entries, but also that of Michael Ober have
disappeared.
The good news is that you are currently leading in the Clio Williams Bullshit Competition.
If anyone would like to see another side of K. Schrödter, simply click on this link http://www.dbutcher.com/cliosale-g.html.
Best regards
David Butcher
.... this time Kai deleted the last sentence, and added ....
Commentary: Dear Mr. Butcher, so that you can sleep more easily I will leave your entry in my Guest Book. However, you
should urgently seek psychological treatment, because you are obviously very mentally limited. I hereby forbid you
explicitely to further smear my Guest Book. Contravention will lead to an immediate injunction. Do yourself and your fellow
mankind a favour, and busy yourself further with your cats and cars, which you obviously need as substitutes for children.
Propogation in your case would not be adviseable for our environment. I wish you all the best for your future, and
furthermore lots of success in cheating your fellow mankind. I hope for you, that you find yourself ....
Hey, why should I see a specialist when I can get an superb free psychological analysis like this from someone as
"knowledgeable" as Kai ?
And Kai, it is none of your business why we don't have any children - but I suspect this comment was born out of your pure
jealousy. At least we can afford and enjoy our cats, four cars (the least powerful and cheapest of which is the Clio
Williams that you can neither afford nor enjoy) and four houses. Aren't you, at 26 years year old (07.05.1976), still
living at home with your parents, with your mother doing all your dirty laundry for you (according to your web site)? When
I was your age, I had fled the safety of the parental nest eight years earlier, and was living in a 160 sq.m 4 bedroom
detached house in Hong Kong, travelling frequently by helicopter to work - but I'm sure someone somewhere would consider
your current lifestyle cycling around Bönnigheim relatively exotic and independant.
I do agree that it is a scary thought that we may not have been able to do any better than your parents could, and that our
children may have "grown up" into "adults" like yourself and Diethard Obenland. It is just a shame that
you could not have passed this excellent advice on to your parents 27 years ago, which would have saved us from the
unpleasant "experience" of having to meet the two of you!
Unfortunately, despite having spent over three months trying to come up with the above response, Kai's attention span was
too short for him to finish the last sentence, but hey, all that cycling probably starves his brain of that much-needed
oxygen! I also believe that the last completed sentence could be referred to in any court of law as slander! Perhaps I
should ask my solicitor for his opinion?
In reply, I repeatedly added the following entry:-
Am 28.08.2002 um 14:40:09 Uhr schrieb David Butcher:
Jetzt fehlt nur noch der Link zu Deiner Seite auf meiner Webseite, damit sich andere ein Bild davon machen können,
wer hier betrogen hat!: www.dbutcher.com/cliosale-g.html
Needless to say, this entry got deleted within 24 hours. Because I don't have anything to hide, I have happily
placed all of our correspondance on this page. It is hardly surprising that Kai does not want a link to this page for his
web site visitors for them to see the darker side of his "character", but eventually Kai gave up and replied ....
Am 28.08.2002 um 17:42:47 Uhr schrieb Kai:
David-Danke,Danke!!!!!!!!!!!
This comment was soon replaced (along with my link) by ....
Ich als Webmaster dieser Homepage möchte hier bekannt geben, daß diese Seite NICHT dazu dient irgendwelche
persönliche Sachen zu klären!
Ich wäre Ihnen sehr verbunden, wenn Sie sich daran halten könnten!
Die Besucher dieser Seite interessieren sich ausschließlich für den sportlichen Inhalt dieser Seite und NICHT
um Ihren ganz persönlichen Streit!
Ich danke Ihnen im vorraus für den Unterlass solcher Gästebucheinträge!
Webmaster
Perhaps Kai should have thought of this before he put some very personal, insulting and slanderous comments about my wife
and myself on his own Guest Book !! Needless to say, I re-added the link to this page, and received the following response ....
Ich kann Sie irgendwo verstehen, aber was bringt es Ihnen, diesen Link jeden Tag immer von neuem reinzusetzen?
Verschwenden Sie dadurch nicht noch mehr von Ihrer Zeit?
Ich fühle mich auch gezwungen, falls sich dies nicht ändert, das Gästebuch auf unbestimmte Zeit
runterzunehmen, bis sich die Lage zwischen Ihnen und Herr Schrödter beruhigt hat.
p.s. Vorsicht bei der Veröffentlichung des Mailverkehrs zwischen Ihnen und Herr Schrödter, dies
verstößt gegen bestimmte Datenschutzgesetze.
After the link had been deleted, and I had reinserted it again, Kai's Webmaster shows that he can sink to almost the same
level of abuse ....
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseba
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Webmaster, www.kai-schroedter.de
Mir reicht es jetzt, anscheinend sind Sie echt nicht intelligent genug um es zu begreifen. Ich habe heute 3 Einträge
aus Kai's Gästebuch entfernt! Ich meine es ernst, ich kann auch andere Wege einleiten, dann sollten Sie sich aber
schon mal nach einer neuen Email Adresse umsehen! Ab dem nächsten Eintrag haben Sie echte Probleme mit ihren
täglichen Mails!
greetinx
WEBMASTER
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseba
To: David Butcher
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Webmaster, www.kai-schroedter.de
Noch ein solcher Eintrag auf www.kai-schroedter.de
und ich werde das Gästrebuch auf unbestimmte Zeit deaktivieren und an dieser Stelle etwas sehr sehr böses
reinmachen!
Wird Sie wirklich nicht freuen !!
Ich hoffe auch Sie können evtl. zur Vernunft kommen !
greetinx
Webmaster
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseba
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:47 AM
Ich wollte eigentlich nur verhindern, daß es so weit kommt!
Ich habe mit der Sache NICHTS zu tun, ich bin weder für Kai, noch für Sie!!
Ich habe zwar einen Teil von dem "dummen Zeug" auf Ihrer Hp gelesen, konnte mir aber trotzdem kein Urteil bilden!
Jetzt sind Sie selber schuld - ich habe Ihnen einige Mails geschieben, mit der Aufforderung, daß Sie sich bitte nicht
mehr in Kai's Gästebuch eintragen möchten!
I then decided to place the following entry in the Webmaster's Guest Book ....
Am 31.08.2002 um 02:25:30 Uhr schrieb David Butcher
As Kai Schrödter expressed himself so eloquently ....
Kick your ass !
Kommentar: Es war mir klar, daß es nur eine Frage der Zeit ist (nach unserem Mailverkehr), bis Sie sich auch in
meinem Gästebuch breit machen! Anscheinend sind Sie in Ihrem Pravatleben nicht ausreichend genug ausgelastet, den
sonst würden Sie sicherlich nicht die Zeit und Gelegenheit haben sich min 5 Mal täglich in irgendwelche
Gästebücher einzutragen! Nochmals vielen Dank für ihren Eintrag Herr Butcher!
Another visitor decided to "enrich" his guest book with the following ....
Am 18.08.2002 um 13:46:42 Uhr schrieb Sven:
how often will mr. butcher publicise his strange things?
i am not at all interested in this shit!
ciao
Commentary: mentally limited people are everywhere. But thanks for your sympathy !
Yes Kai, it takes one to know one! YOU certainly need his sympathy.
Moving on, it seems that Kai has upset someone else too ....
Commentary: anonymous entries will be deleted from now on. The IP for your computer is: 172.178.85.145 in Internet
nothings goes unnoticed. I know who you are, and in the near future you will have lots of fun with the nastiest virii in
the www. Enjoy these, and don't forget that we will meet again........ !
I bet s.s. is really scared now ! You big bully, Kai!
Incidentally, according to www.webhits.de/visualroute/,
this visitor comes from Reston, Virginia 20191, U.S.A. - planning a holiday there soon are we, Kai?
Unless I am mistaken, almost all internet visitors use an Internet Service Provider that allocates dynamic IP addresses -
this means that each time s.s. logs in, he/she will be allocated a new address, so any traces are invalid (unless you made
the trace before this IP Address had been reallocated to anyone else in the world). But since you are meant to be studying
IT at Stuttgart University (rather than wasting your time with Kai and his web site), you knew that already, didn't you,
Josef?
----- Original Message -----
From: rado@home.nl
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:00 AM
Subject: clio williams
GutenTag! Sieht top aus das auto! Da ich in Holland wohne haben die hollandische behoerden was ausgedacht! ich muss
luxussteur zahlen. 25% vom hollandischen neupreis. Das heist jetzt 11.397 niederlandische gulden /4 = F 2849 dazu =
(dm 2500)
Also um es noch intr. zu haben kann ich bieten (falss wirklich top) Dm 14000 BAR!
Grusse Ramon Niederlande
----- Original Message -----
From: MANNARELLICEDRIC@aol.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:00 PM
Subject: (sans sujet)
ICH KAUFFE DIRECT 14000 DM TCHAO
----- Original Message -----
From: romainwilliams@aol.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:13 PM
Subject: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Remarques:
bonjour je vous en offre 50000f
----- Original Message -----
From: romainwilliams@aol.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Remarques:
8000euros cash
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: romainwilliams@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Remarques:
9460 Euros cash
----- Original Message -----
From: stanbecker27@hotmail.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:04 PM
Subject: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Herr/Frau OLLE interessiert sich fuer Ihr Fahrzeug mit der Bezeichnung:
Renault Clio Williams Serie I
Der folgende Kommentar wurde mit eingegeben:
fuer das geld bekommt man woanders ein echtes auto
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: stanbecker27@hotmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Schade, daß Sie ein so langweiliges Leben haben, daß Sie sich die Zeit mit dämlichen Kommentaren an andere
vertreiben müssen!
Wir sind sehr wählerisch bei der Auswahl des nächsten Besitzers unseres Clio Williams. Daher wären Sie
sowieso nicht in Frage gekommen.
----- Original Message -----
From: stanbecker27@hotmail.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:09 PM
Subject: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
Herr/Frau rroeser interessiert sich fuer Ihr Fahrzeug mit der Bezeichnung:
Renault Clio Williams Serie I
Der folgende Kommentar wurde mit eingegeben:
fuer die kohle bekomm ich nen richtigen sportwagen vom schlage integra oder m 3 ,bye
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: stanbecker27@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Fahrzeuginteressent von www.mobile.de
warum schaust du dir RENAULT Clio Williams an, wenn du einen HONDA Integra (oder sollte das LANCIA Delta Integrale
heißen?) oder BMW M3 kaufen willst?
----- Original Message -----
From: AlpineForever@aol.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Der Michael nervt....
Hallo David und Andrea....
ich war vor ein paar Tagen auf Eurer Bockmist-Site....
Ich muß schon sagen....alle Achtung....Ihr habt aber auch ein Pech mit dem Wagen...Wenn ich könnte, würde
ich bei allen ein Kreutzchen machen....Verdient hätten sie`s....
Ich wollte mich bei Euch beiden für unseren peinlichen Auftritt entschuldigen.....Das so viele Leute mitgefahren sind
fand ich ja gar nicht gut.........
Seit 5 Jahren sucht Micha nun schon ein Top-Auto....egal was für eins....Ich kann nur eins sagen....wenn er eins
gefunden hat, ist es bei Ihm wirklich in guter Hand.......
Der neueste Spleen ist ja jetzt ein Turbo 1.......dann ist er mal für ein paar Tage vom Kurs abgekommen und wollte
sich einen SLK kaufen....Ihhhh....einen Daimler............
Ich war immer der Meinung Michi würde den Wagen so nehmen. Nachdem er Eure Nerven und meine gehörig strapaziert
hat.... ich mußte mir jeden Tag sein Leid anhören, ob er den Wagen denn auch bekomme...hoffentlich schnappt Ihm
den keiner weg....er kauft Ihn Blind....usw.....
Schade, das er nicht mit Euch in E-Mail kontakt stand, er hätte sonst auch einen Platz guten Platz auf der
Bockmist-Site verdient.......
Aber genug....Ihr hattet ja Interesse an einem Clio-Williams Poster bei eBay....Ich habe später gesehen, das es meine
Frau ersteigert hat....eben für unseren Michi......So kanns gehen.....
Hoffentlich bekommt Ihr den GT-Turbo von MR. Bean bis Speyer fertig....wann wollt Ihr den losfahren....??? Wir fahren
Samstag(Alpine Turbo, Michi und ich) morgens um 9.00 Uhr in Wesseling los und übernachten dann im Zelt.....Meine Frau
kommt dann mit dem GTE Sonntags nach......Hoffentlich spielt das Wetterchen einigermaßen mit....wäre ja zu
schön....
Ok....genug genervt für heute....ich wünsche Euch noch einen schönen Tag
Viele Grüße
Gerd
----- Original Message -----
From: chagen@VR-Web.de
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 9:56 PM
Subject: Williams Clio
Hi,
Ihr wollt diesen wunderschönen Williams Clio wirklich verkaufen? Schade, daß Ihr den Wagen nicht schon vor einem
Jahr angeboten habt, denn da war ich auf der Suche nach genau so einem Clio! Eurer wäre der absolut ideale Wagen
für mich gewesen, aber die im letzten Jahr so angebotenen Williams Clios waren alle schon weit jenseits der 100.000 km,
so daß ich mir dann einen "normalen" 93er Clio 16V mit geringer Laufleistung gekauft habe (wenigstens ist
er auch blau) und ihn mittels Fächerkrümmer, Remus-Topf, Sportluftfilter und Chiptuning zumindest nominell
Richtung Williams gebracht habe, also auf 148 PS, um genau zu sein. Aber der Hubraum fehlt halt. Trotzdem bin ich mit den
Fahrleistungen zufrieden, ordentlich abziehen tut er auch (vor allem, wenn man davor einen 1,2er Clio mit 54 PS gefahren
hat und schon seit dem Führerschein 1993 vom Williams Clio oder dem Clio 16V geträumt hat.
Was ich fragen wollte, vielleicht könnt Ihr mir da weiterhelfen: ich suche die goldenen Williams-Felgen, um sie an
meinen 16V zu schrauben. Wißt Ihr zufällig, wo man die noch kriegen könnte? Brauchen auch nicht neu zu sein,
sie sollten aber nicht fertig sein.
Aber daß Ihr so viele Probleme mit so einem Deppen habt, ist echt besch....
Aber im Prinzip solltet Ihr vor Gericht bezüglich des Kaufvertrages gute Chancen haben, jedenfalls wenn ich mir das
ganze so durchlese. Da ich ja selbst Jura studiere, kann ich das einigermaßen beurteilen, auch wenn meine
Stärken zugegebenermaßen weniger im Zivilrecht als mehr im Strafrecht liegen.
Aber wenn Ihr den Wagen unbedingt loshaben wollt, wünsch ich Euch viel Glück für einen guten Preis! Ich
denke, der Wagen ist es wert.
Viele Grüße,
Christian Hagen
----- Original Message -----
From: David Butcher
To: chagen@VR-Web.de
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Williams Clio
Hallo Christian,
vielen Dank für Deine nette Mail.
Wir wollen den Clio eigentlich nicht verkaufen, haben ihn aber in den letzten 6 Jahren kaum gefahren und dementsprechend
wenig genossen. Außerdem ist die Versicherung (weil wir vier andere Autos haben), sehr teuer.
Soweit ich weiß, sind die goldigen Felgen noch über Renault beziehbar, werden aber dementsprechend teuer sein
(jemand hat DM 700,- pro Stück erwähnt!). Wo man sie sonst herbekommen kann, weiß ich nicht - vielleicht
findet sich im Internet etwas? Du könntest unsere Felgen kostenlos haben - wenn Du den dazugehörigen Wagen
für DM 18.500 von uns kaufst!!
Das Problem vor Gericht ist, daß wir den Käufer lediglich verbal darauf hingewiesen haben, daß der
Katalysator defekt ist und die Sommerreifen aufgrund ihres Alters ersetzt werden müssen (weswegen wir weder TÜV
noch ASU erneuert hatten und den Kaufpreis von DM 21.000,- auf DM 18.500,- reduziert hatten), dies aber nicht schriftlich
im ADAC-Kaufvertrag erwähnt haben, behauptet er nun von nichts zu wissen und spricht von arglistiger Täuschung.
Wir sind uns noch nicht sicher, falls wir den Williams vor dem 10.04.02 nicht weiterverkaufen können, ob wir versuchen
sollen den Kaufvertrag mit dem Deppen durchzusetzen, da er rechtsschutzversichert ist und wir nicht ... Wenn wir den Fall
verlieren sollten, würden uns natürlich dementsprechend hohe Kosten entstehen.
Mal sehen, wie es weitergeht.
Bis dann,
David & Andrea.
----- Original Message -----
From: hammer@pt.lu
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:06 AM
Subject: Clio etc.
David,
I have probably spent more time on your site than any other I have seen in some time! The bullshitters bit was brilliant.
I just today bought an old banger of a Clio Williams to use on the 'ring and find that there is precious little information
on the net pertaining to this car.
I suppose that I need a shop manual first of all and then I was thinking about the bits and pieces that are probably at the
end of their service lives at the moment. Have you any suggestions? I've followed a bunch of links to no avail...
Oh and if you wish to respond, please use my hotmail account: edward_healey@hotmail.com
as the P&T here has decided that I do not exist and refuse to let me receive incoming emails on this account!
Thanks,
Ed Healey
Luxembourg L-2542
----- Original Message -----
From: edward_healey@hotmail.com
To: David Butcher
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: Clio etc.
David,
Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate hearing from other fanatics and must say that I share your fondness for cats as
well. We have a neighbourhood feline who more or less lives with us here and we have had may feline acquaintances in
Ireland and the USA. Not sure that our current canines share this view though.
My Willy has a good few more kms on it than yours. 168,000km more or less but all I was looking for was a relatively cheap
'ring toy. If it lasts the season, I'll be overjoyed. Trouble is that I have no idea what to look for as far as weaknesses
are concerned. As an ex BMW/Porsche guy, and please don't hold that against me as I never really fit in there, I was
shocked at the lack of information on the Clio Williams available on the net and also at the low quality of the Clio sites!
I could get expert advice on my old M3 instantly but sadly I find none of that with the Renault.
I got burned recently by a dirtball German who sold me an M3 GT. He claimed it to be unfalfrei but lo and behold it
couldn't pass the controle technique here due to serious accident damage. I re-advertised the car as possibly the worst
example extant and found a ready buyer in Sweden! He is happy as hell with it. Honesty is the best policy! I have a hard
time involving lawyers as anything they get involved in tends to enrich them at the expense of us regular guys! However I
will have my revenge, one way or another.
Just to give you a little background, I got seriously into motorsport after years of dreaming in the mid eighties and
competed fairly seriously for 5 years. I had a lot of fun but started far too late to make a serious impact and ran out of
money far too quickly. Neverthelesee it was great fun. I did the Firestone Firehawk VW + BMW + Toyota, Playboy/Escort VW,
HFC Formula Atlantic RT4, Renault Cup, Pro Rally Audi 90 Quattro + 911 + VW, Olympus Rally 90 Quattro, and a bunch of other
stuff including the One Lap of America Alfa Milano + SAAB 9000Aero. I only won once, but my favourite result was a 2nd in
class in a Firehawk 24 hr at Watkins Glen n a VW GTI 16v.
I have a jahreskarte and will hopefully making more use of it over the coming months. Maybe someday we might meet at the
'ring...
The Renault Clio Williams Bullshit Correspondance 
